Founder Mode, done right | Shreyas Doshi (ex-Stripe, Twitter, Google, Yahoo)

Nikhyl: Shreyas So good to see you. It's been a minute. you were on my podcast, uh, when I first got started and I didn't know anything. Uh, now I know a little bit more than, than nothing. And, uh, you've gone on to do great things since we last caught up. Tell me what's, uh, what have you been up to these last, uh, probably a year since we were, uh, chatting on the podcast itself.

Shreyas: Yeah. I feel like one of the, uh, Nikhyl podcast OGs, which is great. Uh, it's a title I'll never lose. Uh, so thanks for having me back then. Uh, and, uh, yeah, things have been good. Life has been good. Uh, mainly focused on the same stuff, uh, advising and also, uh, teaching, uh, both of which are really fun. So cannot complain at all.

Nikhyl: I think that your product sense course is sort of all the rage on social media. Uh, as you've been, uh, taking what is almost an impossible ambiguous subject and, and found a framework for it. So congrats on the success there. And. For those of you listening, I think it's a career accelerator and we're, you know, the skip podcast is all about accelerating people's career.

And certainly product sense course is one of the most tangible things. The folks that I know that have taken it for my community and others have said that, you know, there's nothing like it. So congrats on the hard work. I know that was like a year in the making. So, uh, and you certainly have a gift for, for language.

and speaking of gift for language, I think that in the last week or so you and I were chatting, that this founder mode. Concept has really taken on this, uh, life of its own, you know, pretty much every podcaster in tech is recording one of these. And so here we are doing the same curious, uh, you know, the founder mode, you know, is this terminology that's gotten.

This, um, this excitement around it, and I think that it comes with some risk, which is part of the reason I think I wanted to grab you and talk a little bit about it. I also think that there's a lot of relationship between what it means to be in founder mode and what it means to build good product. So for the for those product managers that are out there, I think they can connect with some of the concepts from found remote and also They can, uh, you know, avoid some of the pitfalls, so maybe I'll start with two related questions. What is founder mode and why is it getting so much buzz in your opinion?

Shreyas: So, uh, I was very happy, uh, to see, uh, the excitement around, uh, Paul Graham's article, uh, whenever it came out about a week ago, I guess.

Nikhyl: So, uh, I noticed that, uh, there was just a high degree of excitement among a certain set of Uh, you know, people who are close to YC and generally associated with that space.

Shreyas: At the same time, I also saw a bunch of, you know, very smart people saying, I don't get it. There's like really nothing new here. There's no new content. There were a bunch of people even saying this is Paul Graham's best piece ever written. Um, which by the way, I disagree with, not because this is not a good piece, but simply because.

The bar he set with some of his other seminal pieces is just incredibly high. Uh, and yet, you know, while I also agree with the observation, there is really nothing new, um, in that, uh, post in terms of content, uh, I was glad to see it, uh, because I think what it did is it introduced a catchy term, uh, from somebody who has extremely high credibility, uh, in the industry.

And I think that is just by itself, very valuable. Um, and which is why I was excited to see it. Uh, now, you know, what, what PG talks about as founder mode is roughly, and like, I'm not going to try to, you know, summarize the blog posts. People should read it on their own. Um, but, uh, what he's trying to say is like, don't follow the conventional Advice, uh, that many founders get as their company is scaling, uh, around, or just hire great, uh, set of lieutenants, uh, and then, uh, manage your company through them.

That's how you scale. Uh, and that is indeed advice that is given to many founders that I talked to on the advising side. Uh, of my work, uh, by their board and by their VCs. Uh, and the post is arguing for is, uh, actually in many cases, founders have found that to be quite detrimental. Uh, to their company.

And as they've realized that, uh, they've taken, uh, you know, they've taken more control and more ownership over certain or many aspects of their business again, uh, so they're not solely managing through, uh, their executives, uh, and are instead digging into details. Uh, and, uh, and then there is a contrast, of course, in the blog post around founder mode versus manager mode, where manager mode considered bad and founder mode considered good.

Uh, and, uh, so that's roughly like what it's trying to say, but again, Uh, you know, and I'm sure we'll talk more about this, uh, throughout our conversation today, but, uh, there's nothing really revolutionary in there. Uh, and in fact, in the blog post, P. G. also says that, like, we will find that, uh, There are many people who are essentially operating in founder mode.

Uh, and they have for a while, many founders and other folks. Uh, and you know, all this is really doing is maybe like creating a greater recognition, uh, and like somehow conveying that, Hey, if you're operating in this mode, Uh, then you're not alone, uh, and you know, even if you might be doing things that seem unconventional to some people, uh, it might be the right way to operate your company, right?

So he kind of ends the blog post with that observation. Um, so, so yeah, that's sort of like what this was about. Uh, like I said, I was very happy to see it. Because it provides, uh, a specific term and perhaps like one other anecdote, if I can share with you, Nikhil, uh, uh, just, you know, the timing of this blog post was great because just about a week before this, I was talking to, uh, some founder who got introduced to me through a mutual contact from Stripe, uh, and, uh, you know, young founder, very well funded in the AI space, uh, uh, Uh, very smart, very talented and, uh, as is often the case, he was reaching out to me to out like, okay, you know, I, in order for me to scale, I need to hire a head of product.

So how should I hire one? Uh, what should I look for? Do you know, I get this question a lot. Do you know any good people, et cetera? So this range of questions I get a lot and I'm, I love kind of working with founders on this stuff. So I got on a call with this founder. Um, and this is like, not my formal advising is just like, Something I do, uh, when a founder comes in highly recommended, uh, and I asked a few questions for about 30 minutes to understand, uh, this founder's particular situation.

It's too like, what are you really trying to do? Why are you like, what is driving this search for a head of product, et cetera. After the 30 minutes I shared with him my, uh, diagnosis, uh, which was. Essentially that you should not hire a head of product right now. It's too early. And, uh, what, what I think you should do, uh, at this stage is just like actually be much more hands on on the thing that matters the most for your business, which through the conversation, it was clear it was going to be the way the product is shaped. And so I shared with him, like, Hey, you need to get hands on with the product, especially given that he was most suited within the company to be the product person. Uh, there were other co founders, but he is the main kind of product, uh, founder. Um, and so I shared like, you know, a bunch of tactics and specifics around that. I don't think that advice resonated with him, uh, and I could tell from the body language, uh, that it was just not resonating with him. But what I'll tell you is what I had essentially given him was a set of, uh, you know, principles and a set of tactics around operating in founder mode. Uh, but, uh, you know, but likely due to many reasons, but one of which is this founder had been hearing from everyone that, Oh, you need to go hire a head of product if you want to scale.

Uh, you know, and here I am telling him the opposite of what pretty much everyone else is telling him. Uh, and this is the first conversation that I've had with him. Uh, so this is really why I'm glad that founder mode has took off, uh, taken off in terms of just like adding to the vocabulary, because I bet if I'd had a conversation two weeks after I did. It would have been much easier for me to just say, you know what, just, you probably read it already, but if you haven't just read PG's post on founder mode, right, that's how I think you should be operating. So that's what I'm actually most excited about is like, I keep for many years now in many situations, not all, but in many situations, my advice to founders.

Has been, yeah, you kind of need to do what founders mode kind of conveys. Uh, and there has been in some cases, not all, but in some cases, some resistance to that. Uh, because again, it goes counter to what they're hearing from VCs and whatnot. Uh, so yeah, that's kind of like my, I guess, perspective on this whole, uh, topic.

Nikhyl: Yeah, that's great. I mean, I have a related story I'll share with you. On Friday, I was talking to a CEO and, you know, a lot of the CEOs I talked to are also either in active mode of trying to find a header product, or obviously I talked to a lot of header products who are on the reverse side of this. And so in this example, the CEO had lost their head of product.

And was in the process of looking for number two, and they were at a different phase of company, you know, and maybe they were, you know, doing okay from a growth perspective and looking to grow a little bit more more aggressively than they had in the past few years. And so, you know, I took a look at the spec and the spec, you know, honestly, it was really thoughtfully written.

But it showed nothing new, you know, you could take that spec and you can line it up and it would look like the other 20 companies at that same phase. Uh, you know, it's almost like the chat GPT version without, um, you know, without it being used. And so what I asked them was like, tell me the thing that you want to have done that wasn't being done in the last two years.

And, you know, the question in the conversation then kind of revolved around product strategy. And they noted that, look, you know, honestly, I think that our product team was mostly an execution team. And I really wish that we had done more from a product strategy and product innovation point of view. And, you know, then I asked them, well, look, if you're looking to outsource product strategy and product innovation to the next head of product, I think you're just going to be disappointed.

Because it's just very tough for someone to come in brand new, no tenure, take a business that's in his 5th, 6th, 7th year and actually try to, you know, transform it. And I said that, you know, where, where are you on this? You're the founding CEO. You've really run the company, you know, and, and, and, and the note that was returned to me was very much that, hey, you know what?

We made a mistake. I don't think we were too much of a delegation as founders to the product team. We were hoping we would get strategy. Essentially, no one, no one caught the ball. The ball kind of fell between the two of us. And so I think to your point, more and more founders are starting to recognize that they have an important, uh, role in the notion of driving big decisions, certainly creating new products, innovating.

Uh, you know, doing kind of the product strategy work and being a lot more generative because sometimes founders don't and CEOs are the only ones that can make the company have that permission. They know what is precious in the company. And these are the things that were mentioned in the post. I think that the heart of the matter, though, and what I'd love to get your perspective is that This is not an easy skill, and I'm curious, like, sometimes I hear CEOs, founding CEOs in particular, are asking about how to scale the company.

And the response from venture, the response from their network is you should go higher. Sometimes I feel like, Oh, you've hit this milestone in growth. This is what companies do. And that what, that's what the post was sort of saying. No, no, no, don't, don't go that direction. But sometimes I think that they know the founder and they recognize the founder is not skilled in this arena.

And so in your example, when you were getting reluctant to your advice, Is a reluctance coming because, hey, I think everyone else is saying I'm at the stage where I can afford a head of product. You can do this work for me. Or is it that actually, I don't know if I can do what you're asking me to do.

Shreyas: now at this point, I've had a hundred plus such conversations with founders over the past, uh, couple of years, and I think a common and persistent theme, which I then end up over multiple conversations, coaching them on further, um, is frankly, they're often just lacking confidence in their own ability as a founder, right?

This is often a talented founder, but. Maybe a first or second time founder. They haven't had that, you know, home run kind of success. Yeah, sure. This current product, uh, and business is starting to scale, starting to show some signs of fit, uh, which is great. Uh, but they are not willing. To admit, uh, number one, that there will never be anybody who is going to have the perfect guaranteed answer to, should we do A or should we do B?

Should we go after segment C or segment D? Right? Uh, but, but there is hope. There is hope that there is somebody out there. Um, that is going to, you know, clarify that some like, you know, professional hire, who's kind of, who has an amazing resume. Um, so I spent quite a bit of my time, uh, helping them understand that, look, you've been in this domain for like five years, 10 years, sometimes even 15 plus years, right?

Like, and you're clearly smart. Uh, and then there's a series of questions through which I try to figure out what their superpower is. And, and in the event that, like, we conclude that their superpower is indeed product, right? Then I do have to kind of make them see that actually there is nobody, there is nobody you're going to be able to have from the outside who is going to have better intuition Around things like product strategy.

Right. Uh, and clearly you already have the product vision, which like we wouldn't be here without that. Uh, and, and so, so some of them understand that others take some time, like this founder I was speaking about earlier, that was my conversation with him as well. Like you need to learn to trust your gut more.

Right. Uh, but it doesn't like that sort of advice doesn't sound very analytical Right. It doesn't sound like it would be the right thing to say in a board meeting context where notes are being taken and we're all being professional. Right. Uh, so I can see why for now, now the best founders in the world that I've worked with that I know, understand this really well, right?

Uh, but if you haven't gotten there yet, uh, then I can see why for some founders, it's just like hard. Uh, to sort of like think about it as like, well, actually, yes, my superpower is product, right? And yes, some of these situations are just inherently ambiguous, right? And that like, yeah, we kind of need to use our intuition and our creativity.

Uh, to solve the next problem, uh, versus expect some kind of like perfect answer emerging out of an analytical framework that a, an extremely professional manager with a great pedigree is somehow going to bring to my company. Uh, so, so that's certainly like one thing I see, uh, that, uh, when I see it, I don't always see it, but when I do see it, uh, I try to call out.

Uh, on the other hand, there are cases where, um, you know, yeah, the founder kind of needs somebody at this stage and like, it would be the right answer to bring somebody in. Um, and in those cases, if that's kind of my diagnosis, the chief question. I asked like two or three questions, uh, there, uh, in that situation. But the chief question, I want the founder to get immense clarity on not hand wave, like, just like you said, that like some job description that is just so like, like, which sounds plausible, but it's also fairly generic, right?

Um, And so, so the chief question I like to get the founder to like create immense clarity on is what aspects of the product make sense for me as the founder to continue to own, even after I hire the head of product, right? And, and this is important, not for just for the company's progress and optimal results for the company.

Uh, but it's also important in terms of setting the head of product up for success. Right. Like, as you, as you very well know, like this head of product role, CPO role is like not, it's a low success role. Right. Uh, and that like, you know, I've not done any kind of like formal survey, but like the median tenure of a head of product at a startup is like 18 months or less, uh, and one of the reasons that gets cited.

And so I also get a lot of heads of product talking to me sometimes of, about various things. And like one of the points of friction has been. Well, I wanted to own strategy, but the founder wouldn't give up strategy. And so we couldn't see eye to eye. And so like, it did not work out. Right. And like this strategy piece and a few other things, things like product quality per brand, like just like, there are some key things.

Um, it's useful for the founder to say upfront that like, you know, I will continue to own this. Now you can go on this with me. Right. And we can work on it together, but I will be primary on certain pieces like product strategy while you are primary on these other things, whatever those are. Right. Like go to market and cross functional alignment and, uh, you know, day to day kind of achieving of goals and milestones and all of that, right.

Like all of which becomes very important and complex at scale, uh, even day to day prioritization, right. But on this product strategy piece. Uh, I will be primary and yes, we can go on it, but there's also the implication that if we, you know, if, and when we don't see eye to eye on certain things, it's going to be my view that prevails.

Right. And I think it's very important to just, it is an awkward conversation. I, I totally get that, but it's, it's an awkward conversation. You need to have upfront to set the right expectations, to set the person up for success and avoid a whole series of other awkward conversations and situations.

Further down the road.

Nikhyl: you know, one of the pitfalls, I think, and a big reason why a lot of companies go to hire head of products. He is around kind of expanding the business. You know, we have something working. We need to find something adjacent. You know, we want to go from single threaded and multi threaded and so many companies end up saying that this is the time that we bring in a C.

P. O. Or how to product to sort of help expand because we do have an execution muscle. And that's what product strategy comes in is like, What is that next thing? How do we create that? And in some ways, that's where growth is going to come from. One of the observations I've made is that, you know, the common pitfall, I think, kind of adhering to what you described is brand new person comes in the company, they've had successes in other companies.

They're bringing in their new ways of doing things. They have a new, fresh, almost naive perspective on the market. They have no idea what has gotten the company to where they are. They don't have any trust in currency within the leadership team and the rest of the organization. Well, by the way, they need to also hire scale, organize the product team, et cetera.

But the primary thing that the head of product is in charge of and what they're being trained on. Asked to be measured by from maybe the CEO leadership and board's perspective is they want to see expansion of the business. And so my observation is this is one of the first things you should not ask the new head of product to do.

Your note is look, you should probably adhere to product strategy. My point is who else can expand the business? Who else knows what does does not break and does break? Who else can actually write the check? Who else can say, well, we're going to run this differently, you know, a company that's in version three, version four, and how they manage it is so vastly different than the goals and the milestones that exist.

So who can fight the CFO on what's the actual, you know, 90 day, 30 day, you know, review process that's needed to get something off the ground. And so it's so counter though. Because so many had a product start with their primary reason to being there is, you know, how many of them in the first 100 days?

Well, I've got to deliver product strategy and mainly we got to figure out how to expand the business. I would say those are been non goal. So if you want to founder mode the company, you almost adhere to that. Bring that now in year three, If you've gotten past that first couple of years, you know, the business you understand you've actually had success in scaling.

I could see that being a different answer. But expansion is one of the scary things where I think CEOs are like, I don't know how to expand. So I'm gonna hire someone new person shows up and says, I'm very excited about that, but I'm failing and you almost need someone to have faith. And to be able to go after this type of work and that person almost is certainly, you know, your CEO, your founder in the midst.

Now, we're talking about pretty early stage companies. Now, 11 thing that I would observe. You talked a lot ahead of products. You mentioned, you know, there's a number of people that are listening to this podcast who actually are like, I get that there's some founders who call Shreyas because they have this recognition And this understanding that maybe they don't know how to do this product thing.

And they call him to get advice. My CEO is not the guy that calls, you know, Shreyas. They are in the weeds. They are dictatorial. Their judgment, frankly, is quite weak. And, you know, in particular, as the company has struggled post zero interest rates, They've become more aggressive about telling us what to do, where the companies can go.

In fact, they replaced my head of product with themselves recently. They see the memo on founder mode and they like send it out and say, see, this is what I've been doing. All you people have been resisting me. But this is exactly how we're going to get through things. So how do you respond to the product people that come to you and say, look, this founder is not only in founder mode, but is actually like living his dream or her dream, but boy, I'm not sure it's the right thing for the company.

Shreyas: yeah. So, so these are tough situations. And so for instance, if it's an individual contributor PM, uh, and I do get that question sometimes from senior, but individual contributor PMs, uh, whether they're part of medium sized companies or larger companies, which is like, Hey, there's this org level thing or company level thing that I don't think is, is The right way to go about things.

We are handed just a list of things to do, whatever the case may be. Uh, like how do you solve it? And, and the reality, I think, um, that like, The sooner you recognize that you have very limited ability here, right? Like we would all like to think that, yes, you can change the world and like it, but that is not how it works in practice in organizations.

Um, so the right level at which this can happen, this level of, because it's a question of influence. And so this level of influence and feedback, uh, that can, can That occurs successfully is at the executive level, the executives, uh, whether that is a leader, a product leader that's reporting to this founder mode, uh, CEO, uh, or, um, other cross functional leaders, uh, who are, uh, Who have built credibility and trust with, uh, the CEO.

Uh, it has to kind of happen there at that level. Um, and so, so there is a certain like, you know, this is not an optimistic message for this kind of otherwise very talented senior individual contributor PM. Uh, but in some ways it is also a message of like accepting reality. Right. Uh, and so I would say like, try to influence through.

The kind of like the executive leadership, uh, instead of like fighting a battle because you're not going to win that battle, right? Like it's just not going to happen. It's certainly not going to happen over the duration of your tenure at the company, right? Uh, maybe the founder realizes at some point and they say, Oh yeah, I made a mistake over the last two years.

Uh, but are you still at the company? How much credibility have you had to burn during this time? Right? Like those are all practical matters. That you've got to think about when you're on a paycheck. So, uh, so like, that's kind of like the first thing I will share. the challenge with founders who are, um, getting into details and like my advice for them, uh, is it's not that getting into details is incorrect, right?

But like, what is, what do you have to think about is where is the leverage for your business? Your product and your brand coming from, right? And I want you to identify like what are the highest leverage points by definition That means not everything is highest leverage, right? Like there are certain things That will just create much greater leverage for your business where you can and should be in the details, like assuming you have the skill and the talent, uh, to provide a unique and, um, useful opinion, you should of course be in the details, right?

Like, but I think what has happened these days is like, we are not cross the board. We're just not thinking rigorously. And critically, right? Uh, even we are in these environments where everybody has a high IQ and yet I see like people are not thinking rigorously and critically about these things. So like one observation is like people will say, Oh, but what about Apple?

Right? Like, Oh, you know, Steve jobs was in all the details. Well, that is not true. Right. That even when Steve Jobs was running Apple, Apple was shipping a lot of crappy software products, right? Like if you look at like Apple's numbers product or even the Apple ID, right. It's a horrible experience, right?

Like to this day, but certainly even when Steve Jobs was running the company, right, uh, you look at even iTunes, right? Like from a product experience perspective, it's not very good. Right. And so, so first of all, like, don't just like, don't manage by taglines, right? Like, Oh, Apple, Steve jobs focused on all the details.

And so therefore I need to do that, right? I need to be in every single detail because if you're being in every single detail, then as a founder who thinks of himself or herself as smart and thoughtful, uh, and wanting to achieve the best results for your company, like where is the judgment? Like what skill does it require?

To decide to be in every single detail. It requires zero skill, right? Uh, and zero judgment. So, so I really want you to think hard about this question as a founder of like, where are the greatest points of leverage for the business and absolutely go into detail there. Right. But like you have limited time, you have limited energy, right?

Like, I don't care if you work 24 hours, seven days a week, you are not at some point as the business is scaling, you're not going to be able to be in every single detail. And this is where it gets like very difficult for your team. Right. If you just like, you know, come in and like, you know, you kind of like, you know, crap all over the team's work in the name of being in the details, you don't give them enough feedback.

You don't, you don't have time to have gathered all the context that the team has in order to give useful feedback. Uh, and then you kind of like, you know, just manage by taglines again. Right. Uh, that doesn't, like, you know, uh, X, Y, Z said that, like, you know, you need to, uh, have a pixel perfect product, right?

Like, no, not really. Uh, last thing I'll share is I saw this very much firsthand. Uh, you know, the right way to do it very much firsthand, uh, at Stripe as Stripe was scaling, uh, right. So this is like. Eight, seven, eight years ago, I saw this where like Stripe by this time had hundreds of employees, many different products, uh, and I saw very much firsthand both Patrick and John Collison in specific areas.

Go into a high degree of like detail, uh, around documentation. You know, Patrick famously would like, you know, review every single detail of the website of stripe. com before it went out, right? Like in some ways he was the PM. Uh, of every kind of like new version of the website, right? Uh, and, uh, and then John did similar things with, you know, many things, including our go to market and whatnot.

Uh, so, but, but the point is like, what I observed is everything was like thoughtful, right? It wasn't like Patrick was getting into every single detail about every single thing that was happening at the company, because by that time it would have been impossible to do so. Right. But like I saw him and John, they identified.

These points of leverage, right? And it's okay at that point to give feedback on UI copy, right? It's absolutely okay, uh, to opine on that. So it's not that the CEO should never opine on UI copy or the CEO should always opine on UI copy. It's about which instances you choose to do that and which instances do you not choose to do that?

So I think that is the judgment, uh, that, uh, I would say founders and executives need to develop.

Nikhyl: I think one point we suggested is look, there is a set of companies that are struggling with finding product market fit or perhaps expanding. And there's a set of maybe ICPM senior leaders that are in the organization where they don't feel empowered.

As part of that journey and your note, and I think my note as well as look, there's certain types of decisions. Sometimes their faith based, sometimes their historical based, which really just need to exist in the leadership team or with the founder themselves. And without that, especially in the early stages of the company, your company is going to struggle because though the ideas might be good at the ground level, they don't have the power.

Yeah. To be able to actually act on that faith. And it creates this dynamic where everyone needs this sort of data to, to show that this is a new direction and you end up getting stuck. And so if you're finding yourself in this scenario where you feel like the company needs a new direction, you're relatively medium or low in the organization, and you don't feel like you're empowered, well that's probably acting as intended.

And that you might either have to live with it. Or find yourself into a company that doesn't need that level of shift or go found, go into an earlier stage where you actually have said power. So that's sort of one note that I heard. Second note I noted was it takes skill. to do the type of work that we're describing mostly in the form of what judgment matters in the organization and where should they lean in your note is a company starts to scale.

There is a myriad of details decisions that exist and all of them come with context and it almost takes no skill. To ensure that you're in every detail and yes, it might be that, you know, great founders have exercised lots of detail and judgment and looked at the icons, et cetera, but they didn't do it for every product.

They did it for the ones that they cared about. And in fact, they kind of signaled to the organization. Here's the areas that I care about. And they care about them for a variety of reasons. And that's the areas that I want to go all the way to the metal on. And then there are other areas that are important, but they're not necessarily feeling like they need to be engaged.

And I'll give you an example. You mentioned the Stripe example, terrific example, you know, at meta, one of the things I noted is, you know, Mark tended to be very in the detail by nature, and he had the human capacity to hold a lot of context. I do think that it was remarkable that he would be able to think and understand and read an eight page document sit before review and have read it ahead of time.

And when it comes to things like AI today. Mark is in the detail because, you know, there's not a lot of people that can sign a check for 10, 000 GPUs in that organization. No VP is going to be able to propose that and make that happen. So he is in the detail and he's quite publicly signaled. This is where he's spending his time.

But when I think about, you know, reels and the important product that was built both on Instagram and Facebook. Over the handful of years, Mark was actually not as involved in that. He was focused elsewhere because he knew that the folks that were in the leadership team had enough understanding of how to build that.

And there was a lot of market forces as to why that was an important product. So it almost didn't need an unnatural act to take off and yet it was one of the most important things that the company had delivered. So it wasn't a matter of his judgment being these are important. I'll focus on all the important things.

It was almost like what are the unnatural acts or where areas that I can have a 10 X impact or that I would care 10 times more than others would care. That is almost the judgment that's been required. And I think that when I get head of product calls. Where people call me and they say, look, my CEO is crazy CEO.

He's in the weeds. She's in the weeds. And I don't feel like I have enough oxygen. Sometimes the answer is, well, maybe that is CEO prerogative or founder prerogative. And sometimes it's, they just don't have good judgment and they're in the wrong things. And, you know, but I would say that not everyone is not acting in founder mode.

It's those that act have to act in a way that's actually sensible. Did I, did I capture the notes correctly?

Shreyas: Yeah, I think so. I, I think there is that element of self awareness that I think we are also getting to, uh, which is quite vital, right? Like. Uh, again, like one observation, and this is why I made a, uh, post myself, uh, about like this founder mode thing. I make it a point never to like really comment on like trending tech topics just cause that's not my style.

But I broke that rule once, uh, this time as this founder mode thing was getting a lot of traction because it's like, okay. But what does it mean in practice? Right? Like, and one of the points I shared in the piece I wrote on this, uh, which is more about like, you know, the next level of detail of what this means, what this does not mean, um, is the idea that look, the main goal as a founder or as an executive, who's kind of highly influenced by this idea of founder mode. The main goal is not to operate in founder mode, right? And neither is the main goal to like, you know, avoid manager mode, whatever that means, right? Your main goal is to win, right? And I think sometimes, like, of course, when I say it, it's like, yeah, of course that's the main goal, but what happens I've seen in practice within organizations is that we get too wedded to some methodology, right?

Some buzzword, right? Like, Ooh, founder mode. Now, while it is a good proxy for what we want, which is to win, you don't keep the actual, like main goal in mind, which is like, actually I want to win. Right. And what that means is that yes, founder mode good in some cases, but in some other cases, like, you know, where I don't have the skill, right.

So I don't have the skill to really comment on how the sales team that we are setting up is Cause now we're going to the enterprise segment. So we're setting up a sales team and we're going to create incentives for them. And we're going to look for certain profiles of sales folks, right? Like thus far, we've had a very kind of bottoms up product led motion, which I am an expert in as the founder.

Right. But now we've decided, uh, as a strategic, um, priority to go to the enterprise segment where I don't have that much context. Right. So, so again, this kind of like founder mode, good. Like I now have to be, make myself a little more open, maybe considerably more open, uh, to other perspectives. Right. And no, I cannot likely man micromanage.

Right. the details of the sales compensation, uh, structure, because it's just like, I don't have context on it. Right. So, so it's that, again, it goes back to that judgment, uh, and self awareness.

Nikhyl: I want to switch gears to a different constituent who reads the founder mode memo and sort of suggests that change is needed. So there's a set of let's call them leaders and organizations who read the memo and they say, you know what? I think I've been operating in manager mode. And that is the wrong mode to operate in.

And so the particular note was really designed to founders who had maybe stepped too far away from their business. And then the so called MBA who was the evil one, you know, don't don't don't hire these folks. Don't delegate to these folks. These people don't add any value, but I suspect there's Lots of leaders.

Who can use either mode and they're sort of like wondering, well, what's the most effective way for me to add value to this organization? And maybe my question at a generic level is can non founders be in founder mode? And if you find yourself as a leader, struggling to sort of empower your management team and also stay in the detail, and I'll be very concrete.

I mean, this was a big challenge with me at Meta. Because in meta, there were a lot of people above me who were very much in founder mode, very opinionated. And then there was this terrific team that we had below me, who each of them had ownership. And there is an open question as to like, well, the more I lean in and get into the quote unquote detail, there's an art to that.

And you can take away the oxygen and the creativity of your team. Yet the people above you are very opinionated and the people below you were very opinionated. So it's very easy to be in quote unquote manager mode and try to move things along. But then you read the memo and you're like, well, maybe you're just essentially a bureaucrat in this example, and maybe I need to get involved.

But doing so comes at the expense of others being able to be in quote unquote founder mode. So how do you coach folks that are sort of in an organization, reading this memo and realizing they need to be hands on, but they struggle? With forces above and below.

Shreyas: Yeah I love that question

my perspective, My personal bias is towards, I guess what we're now calling founder mode and it, it always has been, um, and I'll observe that, uh, there are many founders like a meaningful percentage, not a majority, but a meaningful percentage of founders that will never be able to do this founder mode, right?

So just, just having the title and the authority, uh, And the aura that surrounds a founder doesn't mean you can actually like do founder mode correctly. Now you can try, uh, anybody can that requires zero skill. Uh, but it doesn't mean you can execute on it the way it's supposed to be executed on. Um, so, so that's perhaps like one observation, uh, that is very important is not all founders can do founder mode.

Right. And similarly, uh, not all so called quote managers. are operating in manager mode, right? Like I know plenty of people, even as leaders, executives, or even middle managers of, uh, within companies, even within large companies, like they've operated in this founder mode. Um,

so I do think that there is that recognition that in some ways, founder mode is not something you become.

Honestly, it's something you are. You already are, right? And somebody who operates in this kind of, again, code for the mode, like they just cannot help it, right? They cannot, but think in that manner, right? Whether they are the founder or whether they are an individual contributor, tech lead, right? I know plenty of tech leads, uh, and you know, individual contributor engineers, like who are two, three, four, five, six years into their career.

And I would say, you know, since day one. Like, nobody taught them this founder mode thing, but that's just how they operated, right? That's how they operated. Um, so, so I do think, and this is not something people will talk about, uh, very openly, which is why I particularly wanted to bring this up. That there is some element of just who you are that you have to kind of recognize, right?

And, and it's better to act in concert with that. Rather than try to like, you know, put on a certain like, Ooh, like, well, I like, look, here's the reality. If you gravitate more, uh, towards, and very few people can like do both extremely well, because the very thing that makes you great at one will ensure that like, you're not that naturally great at the other.

So, uh, for instance, if you're great at this thing I call optics, right, which is great in many large organizations, especially in this manager mode, like the fact that you're great at optics will like ensure that you cannot be great at this thing called like driving actual impact through content, right?

Like, it's just, you know, That is not going to happen. Right. And the reverse also is true, right? Like I know many of these founder more people who are individual contributors or managers, right? What do they do? What is one of the things they do as part of being founders more? Well, they don't just inherit all the rules of the company and just operate exactly within, uh, within those rules, right?

They know that at times they have to bend some rules, right? At times they had to break some rules. And, and that's how they achieve that outside success for the product, the team, the organization, right? So in many ways, by bending those rules, they are taking on personal risk, personal risk that they did not need to take, right?

The PR and in fact, like if I've, I know many such people and like. You know, they don't think twice about that, right? Like they're not thinking well, but how is this going to look to this senior director person that's in my organization, who's going to be in the promo committee and this cross functional peer, who's also going to be in that promo committee and they are going to discuss like, you know, whatever, how well I dealt with this cross functional peers team.

And they're going to make the decision in the promo committee, and I understand the exact biases of this person and like, you know, they're not thinking any of that. Right? Because they just don't think like from an optics perspective, right? They just think like, what is necessary to drive this impact?

Right? Um, and so, so that's like, I guess the first point I'll make, right? Uh, is around like, just, there are many people like operating in founder mode already. And they are individual contributors, they're middle managers, or they are executives, right at companies.

Uh, I think it is more important for people to find the right setting that works.

in accordance, uh, with their skills and, uh, just their natural inclination, right? Uh, I think it is very hard. And again, this is not something most people will say, but I have observed that it is very hard. It is extremely brutal for anybody to sort of like put on an act or somehow Try to live something that they are not, right?

And I have seen, you know, with grit and determination and willpower, people can do it. You can do it too, right? But it's very hard to do it day in and day out for years and decades, right? Like you, it's much better for your life, for your career, uh, and for your general progress in both of those. uh, aspects, uh, to more understand that self awareness of like, what is, you know, what is the kind of setting, what is the kind of culture, what is the kind of environment that I like to operate in, right?

And if I do find myself in a situation where, My current situation is not in accordance with that. It's useful to recognize it, right? And it's then useful to be intentional about, okay, do I now change my mode? Right? Do I now change my approach intentionally? In order to achieve certain goals, whether they are my own personal career goals or whether their goals for the org that I'm leading. And that is a fine choice to make, to make that change. Right. But now you're at least aware that you're doing so temporarily for a good set of reasons, um, versus like having this constant kind of inner struggle of like. Well, this is not how I want to operate, but like, I guess I have to, because of this memo or this other thing, or my VP is telling me that this is how I ought to operate.

Again, if you have a, which a lot of us like in, you know, who are very high achieving in this industry, we do have a great degree of like, just grit and discipline, uh, but I will tell you, like, I've talked to many people who've tried to be who they're not. Uh, and it works and they, they might still get that next promotion, but it doesn't lead to a happy and satisfied career, right?

Even if the LinkedIn looks great, uh, they're not happy day to day, uh, and it shows the stress and that inner conflict shows in all sorts of other ways. So I don't know if this is the direction you wanted me to go in, but, but I, I just thought. to take this opportunity to point this out.

Nikhyl: no, I like that. I like this, this note quite a bit. I mean, one of the things that I'm going to see if, if I paraphrase, if you agree with this, I think that in the end a product leader that's operating in founder mode has to have acute opinion. They have to be highly opinionated. On the direction, the area, the manner in which the product is being delivered.

That point of view has to almost be insatiable. They must see that product opinion come to fruition. There is, if you, if you are said individual and you have this capacity to be opinionated and to act on that opinion, you are operating in founder mode. Now, if on the other hand, your objective function is much more on the process, the mechanics, and you called it the optics of how the product is constructed, then in some ways you are operating in manager mode because you're actually less opinionated on the product that's being created and more opinionated on how it's being constructed.

I think what we're saying industry wide is as growth is slowing. Those opinions matter more than how the product is being constructed. And I think the reason why this founder mode memo came and hit a nerve is that for a number of years. Lots of the founders were so focused on how to drive growth regardless of what product is there because growth was coming for free that they, you know, using the term in the node was they were almost gas lit around.

How are you scaling? Not what are you scaling? And that pendulum is shifted. Now, if we go back to your recent note your point is, look, you can't just become opinionated. And so you have to decide which one are you and find the right environment. I think that the nuance that I would say is maybe there is a set of people that are working in companies where they're not opinionated about the product that they're delivering.

They're more opinionated around the process and then they're finding themselves more marginalized. The answer is not to give up their career, but maybe to find a product or an angle where they are opinionatedwhere they can enjoy getting into the detail and they actually can want to bring that to fruition. But if you are one of these folks that are in an organization where the opinion matters and you don't have an opinion, you can fake it.

But you're going to eventually find yourself kind of in this inner turmoil that you describe and more and more you need to find and this is my account coaching and counsel and I'd be curious if you agree you need to find products that you work on where you're very very opinionated and you must see those product opinions come to light if you don't you're not going to be a builder and I think you're going to struggle in the environment that we're in today is that fair statement did I capture that correctly

Shreyas: Yeah, I think you captured it really well and it reminds me of, um, I've written in the past about this kind of three archetypes of product leaders. Um, it's the operator, the craftsperson, and the visionary.

you know, the names are kind of somewhat, there's some details in the writing, but like the names are really self explanatory, right? Like for this audience. Um, and my observation is that on your point about what are you really opinionated on, right?

Like, well, it turns out my recommendation to founders or CEOs who are at that sort of like, you know, optimization phase of their business, right? Like, okay, this is already a juggernaut. Right. We are in a billion plus in revenue or tens, hundreds of millions in users, whatever the metric might be. Right. But there is a lot of room to grow still.

Right. But now with all of this scale comes, uh, just an extreme degree of complexity. Right. And your success now in terms of getting that additional value capture, right. Which by the way, is the greatest value your business will capture is during that optimization. Stage, right? So this is Google search over the past like 16 years, right?

This is the Facebook core product over the past 10 years, right? Like that is where like all the like value is really captured, right? Like it, like Facebook's revenue pre 2014. is dwarfed by, you know, the core Facebook products revenue in the past 10 years. Right? So, um, so it is a very critical phase, right?

The complexity is so high, right? That the leader that operates in the executive that, that can do well, and that can bring the optimal outcome for the company is actually this operator or archetype. Right. Who is very opinionated about how things get done, how things get optimized. Right. Like, and perhaps not so opinionated about whether it should be this word or that word in this email.

Right now their, their view way of expressing that might just be, well, let's run a test, right? Instead of this craftsperson archetype who's like, no, no, no, actually this word is better and I kind of don't care how well the other version performs, but this word is the right word from a brand perspective.

Right? So that's very much the craftsperson mindset. Right? So, and it's the crafts person who's actually going to help you get there, right? It's the crafts person, his or her sensibility, right? And ability to identify and be correct usually about exactly what's going to work. Right? Uh, is what's going to get you to that stage where you now even have the luxury of performing these massive optimizations over decades sometimes, right?

Um, so each role, each archetype is important, but at the right time, right? So I think your point about like, identify like what you are opinionated about and make sure that's aligned with whatever it is that you are going to lead, I think is a very astute point.

Nikhyl: Yeah, or maybe a simple, simplified version is mapping those superpowers, those interests around opinions to what needs to change in your organization, because what you're noting, and I think we can both observe, is that once these companies hit their stride and they're in these growth modes, there's massive changes to, in your example, the operational rigor of the organization.

That the company needs to go to to continue to maintain that scale, but the company doesn't need to see a dramatically different change in the product itself, right? The growth of the product is different from the product market fits it. Now, there are parts of that organization, Google Meta and those examples, which are doing lots of new product development.

Where the craft is essentially everything. And the operational rigor is actually not the critical factor. And so in some ways where your opinions matter and then mapping it to what that particular company needs. And then where your heart lies, I think is a big piece. I mean, listening to this conversation, I think one of the things that's happened for both of us is though we've been in growing organizations that we're seeing quite a bit of scale.

In our heart of hearts. We're both very opinionated about certain things that are ambiguous and they weren't necessarily. The thing that we were spending all our day on. Yes, we were competent at being able to scale the organization and manage the next level. But I think you were very opinionated on the craft for product management, and I'm very opinionated on career, and I think through the level of ambiguity that both of us faced in our day jobs now and how opinionated we are.

And when I make these opinions now, I'm much more decisive. Because I'm like, no, no, I'm pretty convinced this is the correct answer. I'm fairly convinced. I know how to think about product careers. And I think in your case, you've made this point many a time to me that you're very opinionated on, no, no, this is the right way to think about something like product sense.

And I think that once you get into that mode, you find yourself in a flow state as you've showed to me, that is very hard to find. And if you're not quite aligned. With your superpowers and your opinions and the needs of what your environment requires. So maybe you could speak to that because I think that that's so helpful to me when you share that point with me and I think it applies in this founder mode as well.

Shreyas: Yeah. And perhaps I'll share two observations. Uh, one is, uh, you know, an extremely strong and Non consensus opinion of mine is that in the vast majority of cases, when it comes to product and that's both macro and micro, right? Like, should we go after this segment or that segment? What's the strategy? How do we differentiate, et cetera, to like, should we build feature A, B to like, okay, should this be a two step flow, three step flow, whatever, right?

Like everything from the macro to the micro. In most cases, you can figure out the correct answer up front, right? And, and figuring out that correct answer up front is purely a matter of skill. Now it is not a common skill, but it is a skill and it is a skill that many people possess. Right? Uh, and this is like.

You know, a lot of examples of that are these kind of like just really brilliant product minds, right? That like, usually it's the CEOs, founders of companies, but they're everywhere. They're everywhere from like IC engineer to PM to group PM. Like it's all everywhere. Right. Uh, and I've been fortunate enough to work with and know and.

Uh, you know, uh, help, uh, many such folks. So I've seen this right at all levels. Um, and you know, this is like very counter to the like standard prevailing product management advice of like, you know, you launch something based on some hypotheses and then you test and you iterate and you learn, which by the way, all of which is good.

Right. But that is not the primary way you get alpha, right? Right? Like, cause like launching and iterating and like, you know, all of that process, the blah loop and the OODA loop and the converge diverge, all of that stuff, it takes up time and it takes up a lot more time than we think in theory, it takes up, right?

It's like, you know, every experiment that we do comes at a pretty high cost, right? In, in, in reality, even if it seems cheap. Right. Uh, and so, so my observation and my like opinionated view is like the counter to my, this view tends to be, but like, you can't think forever. And my point is, no, you don't have to think forever, right?

Like the people who are great at this, they can figure out the correct answer within a matter of seconds to minutes to maximum hours. Right. Don't tell me you don't have a few hours, right? What you don't have, it's not a lack of time. Like, and it's not this like move fast and speed and all of that. Right?

Like what you don't have perhaps is the skill on your team, right? To do that. And what you don't have perhaps is the humility to listen to somebody who has the skill on your team, right? Like that is what you don't have. So can we address that? Instead of just having the excuse of like, well, who has the time?

Let's just like, I read somewhere that like you should just ship it. Right? Like, no, that is not the right way to build products. And that is not the way anybody who's great at product, anybody who's like products you enjoy using. That is not the way they operated. Right. So, so that's like, you know, one sort of view, uh, that is very non consensus.

Uh, but I know to be true. Right. And, and, and it is something that like, I have then further to, you know, what you said, I've sort of made it a key part of like a challenge to myself. Right. Which is, uh, you know, I know this is true and I know this is true because I have done it many times, not once. And I have seen many other people do many times, right?

It's not like I'm some exception here in any way, right? So how can I get this ability, both the mindset and the skill, uh, to be recognized by more people in the industry so that they can be more successful more quickly? Right. Uh, both in their careers, but also in the case of founders, like the products and the businesses they're building.

Right. And that's kind of like, you know, in some ways that has been my mission in my advising and my teaching. Right. Uh, and so, uh, so it's like, it really kind of like permeates a lot of what I do now. Right. Uh, uh, and so that's one point.

And the second point. Especially as we start talking about like sort of the journey both you and I have gone through recently in terms of like, okay, let's create this alternate path in this next chapter, right?

That's not the conventional path where there is no path to define, right? Like we have to kind of figure it out. Yeah, I think it is extremely important. And it won't happen immediately necessarily, nor do you need to force it. But I do think it is extremely important that for anybody thinking about that, like, okay, I've done this operating thing for 20 years, 25 years, 30 years, you know, I'm going to do something different now.

And I feel like, like I'm ready, right? It is very important to figure out what it is that, You are very uniquely great at something you just gravitate towards. It will require some experimentation, some trying. To figure it out, but it's much better to approach it from that inside out perspective, then to solely, which I unfortunately see some people, you know, without that guidance, what they end up doing as well.

Okay. Somebody starting a newsletter. So maybe I ought to do that. Right. Or somebody else has a podcast. So maybe I ought to do that. Oh, somebody else is a venture partner at a VC firm. So maybe I ought to do that. Oh, somebody else is angel investing. So maybe, you know, like that's the, and they are very successful.

And they did not even have a big title. We were at the same company and I was like two levels about this person. Right. So like, if they can do it, I can do it. Right. Like there's like really many paths open to you, right? Like once you're going to decide to, um, you know, go to this next chapter. Uh, and yes, I mean, it's okay.

It's okay to experiment. It's okay to look at what's working and experiment. Nothing wrong with that. There will be some experimentation required, but the, you know, the But the point of the experimentation is to identify what is strongly resonant. What is it that you're doing that nobody else can do, right?

Uh, and, uh, and, and so that's the goal of the experimentation. The goal of the experimentation is not like, okay, I guess I started a newsletter and now I have 3000 subscribers. Now, how can I take it to 15, 000 or how can I take it to a hundred thousand or somebody else has 500, 000? How do I get there?

Right? Like you will know once you bring it to 3000 or 5, 000, like, is this the thing that you're going to be uniquely good at? So the experiment is useful, but you've got to actually learn from the experiment instead of looking at somebody else's metrics and saying, well, I want those metrics, so let me get there.

Nikhyl: Yeah. I mean, I love this. And as we wrap up, maybe I'll start with the last point. I won't pretend to summarize this conversation fully, but Maybe the easiest way to describe it is find something in your career that you can be effective in founder mode at. That to some extent is what we've both been saying.

Founder mode means you have to be highly opinionated, almost to the point of having faith in your own self. And that is a combination of judgment of where to focus and strong conviction that this is the right directionthe companies h That have founders that are too much in delegation mode, hoping that that insight and that opinion will come from others, particularly when they're early stage.

When the company needs that judgment, almost without data, those companies are going to struggle. And to some extent, those companies should feel comfortable with their leaders are much more involved. Being in the detail is sort of uh almost like par for the course. Everyone should ensure that they have enough contacts are in the detail.

They have the capacity. It's not easy by that. Once you are in that point, you are in a position to make better judgments and have these insights but again, you have to know where to focus. The larger the company, the more becomes operational. The more that those opinions matter and those need to be brought to the table and founders need to find the lanes.

Otherwise, all decisions will come to them. Companies will slow and they won't necessarily be able to expand in any effective direction. But I love the example that you use at the end, which is once you find that you, and you do that perhaps with experimentation, you're in a position to do, you know, amazing things.

You can have tremendous impact. And you can also find yourself in a state of flow that's very hard to find if you're trying to pretend to be someone else.

Shreyas: Uh, that was very well summarized. My only addition would be work backwards from winning rather than trying to work forwards, from somebody else's tactics and the latest management philosophy, uh, or the latest viral, uh, meme or trend.

Nikhyl: I love that. I love that. Yeah, and betting on yourself is always the most important and valuable thing. Trace. Where do people find you? I know that you have the product sense course, which you're investing as well as the other course on career, but curious around where do they find you if they want to get more content from you and follow you?

Shreyas: Uh, the best place is, uh, LinkedIn. Uh, Twitter or X and these days my YouTube is where many people are finding me, which has been very Great to see it's it's a channel that I have more than a hundred videos. These are kind of short Short form videos, like anywhere between two minutes to usually not more than 10 minutes.

Um, and so, you know, it's a series of videos that you can watch, uh, to kind of, uh, learn more about, uh, these kinds of nuanced, nuanced and practical, like problems and ideas, uh, that can help you perform better. Uh, so, uh, they're also binge worthy in a way. So, uh, feel free, uh, to subscribe there on YouTube.

Nikhyl: Well, I've always learned something from you every time I watch your video or chat with you or see your tweets and posts on LinkedIn. I think that you have a gift for language. And I'm glad that founder mode is another one of these sort of language innovations more than content innovations because it gives us a chance to catch up and, you know, describe kind of what we're, what we're seeing with this new, this new meme, which I'm sure will continue to take on its own life over the last, you Set of months of the year.

Uh, thank you for joining me on the skip podcast and, uh, thank you for all the hard work that you do for the community and for the product managers in general. I think it's tremendously impactful.

Shreyas: Thanks for having me. It's an honor.

Nikhyl: Good seeing you. We'll talk soon.